Refuting a JW, proving the Trinity (1 views) Subscribe   
  From:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   7/6/2001 10:27 am  
To:  ALL   (1 of 8)  
 
  110.1  
 
Here is a post by a Jehovah's Witness called X-atheist (JW), in which he argues against the Trinity. The next post is his origional post to me, listing these questions. The subsequent posts are my reply as a Trinitraian to him. 


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  From:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   7/6/2001 10:33 am  
To:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   (3 of 8)  
 
  110.3 in reply to 110.1  
 

1. If God is and always has been a Trinity, did the Jews find that teaching in the Old Testament? 
Answer: The apostles taught the Truth about who God was, however in the late third century, this truth began to be challenged for the first time by people who taught views contrary to scriptures. The Church then quite rightly, formulated responses to the various heresies which arose; Arianism, Modalism, Adoptionism, Nestorianism etc. So my response would be that you are obviously not going to find a 5th century creed such as the Chalcedon definition, in the Old Testament, stating that God is a Trinity, any more than you will find the 20th century creeds and man made formulations of the Watchtower Society, Way International and the various non-Trinitarian Oneness churches in the pages of the Old Testament. 

2. What does the Old Testament say about God?Deuteronomy 6:4; Psalm 145; Zechariah 14:9. 

Answer: The obvious revelation of the Old Testament is that God is one, the Trinity is based upon the foundation that God is one God, one Spirit, one being, with one mind and will. However the word used in Deut 6:4 for one is echad, (259 in Strongs Concordance) which means one in agreement or one in unity. This same word echad is first used in Genesis 2:24, where Adam and Eve are said to be one (echad) flesh. Another word Yachid (3179), which refers to one in an absolute sense is never used of the Godhead in Scripture. Thus Deut 6:4 does not contradict the claim that the one God of the Bible is three persons namely; Father, Son and Holy Spirit. In fact the word echad very strongly confirms this, not only at Deut 6:4 but also at Zech 14:9 where it is also found. Unless of course you would wish to argue that Adam and Eve are also one person at Gen 2:24, where the word echad is also used of them? You see to interpret the Bible properly, you have to do it consistently, relating both the context and grammar as well as word uses, in all of the other related passages. 

3. Does the Old Testament refer to the holy spirit?Judges 15:14; Zechariah 4:6. 

Answer: A very erroneous pattern is emerging in your questions. Namely that you are attempting to ignore the clearer revelation of God in the New Testament, and instead build a model of God based upon the less clear Old Testament passages. For your information, little is revealed about Jesus until the pages of the New Testament. For although he was prophesied in the Old Testament, (Ps 110:4, Isa 53 etc), he was never fully revealed in Scripture until the New Testament. Therefore in formulating a doctrine of Christ, we should start with the clear passages and not with the less clear formulating our doctrine accordingly. So likewise the Holy Spirit, though hinted at in the Old Testament, is not fully revealed in Scripture until John chapter 14, when Jesus then revealed to his disciples that he would send the Holy Spirit after his departure. 

What Scripture does reveal about the Holy Spirit is that he is God (Acts 5:3-4), YHWH (Acts 28:25-27 re Isa 6:9-10), and that he possesses various attributes of deity such as omnipresence (Ps 139:7). Furthermore the Holy Spirit is revealed in Scripture as a he, and not as an impersonal thing or an it. The word for Spirit in the New Testament (pnuma), is a neuter word in the Greek, but at John 16:13-15, John seven times breaks the rules of Greek grammar by using the masculine he with this neuter word. What could be clearer than this, the Holy Spirit is identified with personal pronouns to emphasis that he is personal and not an impersonal it. 

Lastly the Holy Spirit possesses the four attributes of personality. He possesses self-cognisance, which means that when he speaks he can say I, which no impersonal force can say (Acts 13:2). He has self will (1st Cor 12:11), intellect (1st Cor 2:12-13), and because he can be grieved he also possesses emotion, which no impersonal thing or force cannot express (Rom 15:30, Isa 63:10). So in summary, you are starting at the wrong place and going in the wrong direction. Because a more complete Biblical understanding of the Holy Spirit only starts at John chapter 14, and then progresses onwards towards the epistles. There is very little said of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament, and either way your two Old Testament verses do not contradict my claims and New Testament evidence. 

continued 



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  From:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   7/6/2001 10:34 am  
To:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   (4 of 8)  
 
  110.4 in reply to 110.2  
 
4. In the Old Testament, is the holy spirit referred to as a person or as Gods active force?Judges 14:6; Isaiah 44:3. 
Answer: Neither of these exact terms is used anywhere in Scripture, so this is an argument based upon complete silence. 

5. Does the Old Testament refer to a promised Messiah, or Anointed One?Daniel 9:25, 26. 

Answer: Messiah means the anointed one, from your question, you obviously did not know this. 

6. Does any text in the Old Testament equate the Messiah with God?Psalm 2:2, 4-8; Isaiah 45:18; 61:1. 

Answer: Yes, Matthew takes the divine name YHWH found at Isa 40:3, and directly applies it to Jesus Christ at Mt 3:3. John also takes the divine names YHWH-Adoni found at Psalm 35:24, and applies these two terms (Lord and God) to Jesus at John 20:28. John again applies the term YHWH to Jesus in John 12:34-41. When he says that referring to the glory of YHWH mentioned at Isa 6:3 which Isaiah saw in verse 6, John says in John 12:41 that the glory which Isaiah saw was the glory of the Son of Man whom John mentions in Jn 12:34. Lastly, the writer of Hebrews applies Psalm 102, which he knows is twice said to be written to YHWH God (Ps 102:1, 12), and he applies this Psalm to Jesus Christ in Heb 1:10 claiming that Jesus is the creator of the universe. I cannot comment upon your verses, as you have offered no explanation, and I see no relevance in these verses to your question. 

7. Does any Old Testament text give a solid basis for believing that Jehovah/Yahweh is three persons in one God?Isaiah 44:6; 46:9, 10. 

Answer: Your three verses merely affirm that God is one God, which Trinitarianism has affirmed for 2,000 years. As I have said earlier, the fuller revelation about the person and work of the Holy Spirit was not fully given until John 14, and so before this chapter, we do not find any full and clear exposition of God as specifically three persons. 

Nevertheless, we do have an implicit reference to the three persons at Isa 48:16-17: And now the Lord God has sent me and his Spirit. Thus says the LORD (YHWH) your redeemer. ((Note that the Hebrew verb is singular, and so the KJV rendering is incorrect, as the KJV wrongly implies that the Spirit sends Christ)). So the speaker is both sent and is himself YHWH God, this statement harmonises completely with the NT account that the Father sends the Son into the world (Jn 16:28, 1st Jn 4:9-14). The Lord God also sends his Spirit which again harmonises with passages such as Jn 14:26, where the Father sends the Holy Spirit. So the reference to Lord God is the Father, YHWH your redeemer is the Son our redeemer (Heb 9:12, Rev 5:9), and the Spirit who is sent is the Holy Spirit (Jn 14:26). 

8. Who sent Jesus to the earth? Then who is superior?John 5:19, 23, 30; 8:42; 14:28; 17:3. 

Answer: Your first verse (Jn 5:19) says that the Son can do anything that the Father can do. My response to this is simply to say, in what specific way then is the Son inferior to the Father, if he can do anything which the Father can do? Your second verse (Jn 5:23) affirms that equal honour is to be given to the Son as to the Father. Now this would be a promotion of idolatry, if the Son were not himself God (Heb 1:8), YHWH (Heb 1:10) and eternal (Heb 13:8, 1 Jn 1:2). Your third verse; John 5:30 is merely a repetition of John 5:19, which states that the Son does not act independently of the Father, and nor does the Father act independently of the Son in any way. They are unified and always act in complete harmony and unity of action, because they are the same one God. John 8:42 simply states that the Son is sent by the Father into the world, this I also affirm, and see nothing implying an inferiority here. 

At John 14:28; My Father is greater than I, the word for greater which is used in the Greek is mezion (3187 in Strongs concordance), which implies a position of authority, rank or status. See Lk 22:24-26, Mt 11:11, Jn 15:20 and Rom 9:12 (older NKJV), where mezion is used in each case to imply a superior rank, position or authority. The Greek language has another word which is also translated as greater, but which means to be better or superior than in nature. This word is pleion (4119 in Strongs), and it is used at Mt 12-41 to imply that Jesus is better and superior in nature than both Solomon and Jonah. Therefore because mezion, and not pleion is used at John 14:28, this clearly tell us that the Father holds a superior rank and position to the incarnate Christ, who humbled himself at his birth (Phil 2:7-8). Now if John had instead wished to tell us that the Father was better than the Son, then he would have used the word pleion instead of mezion. 

Lastly, you are making a basic logical category error, when you claim that the phrase "only true God" at John 17:3 means that the Father alone is the sole true God. Now if the text had said that only the Father is the true God, then you would have been quite right in your claim, but the text does not say this. It rather says that the Father belongs to a category, namely the only true God. There is nothing in this sentence, which precludes others such as the Son and Holy Spirit from being in this category as well. And Scripture says that he Son also belongs to this category of true God (1 Jn 5:20). 

Allow me to illustrate it this way with a simple logic statement. Rover is only a dog, dogs eat food and President Bush is not a dog. Therefore from logic, it is completely erroneous to induce from this, that because President Bush is not a dog, he therefore does not eat food. You see there is nothing in the original statement, which states that because dogs eat food and men are not dogs, therefore men do not eat food. You likewise are you making a very simple category error in logic, when you wrongly assume that John 17:3 is somehow stating, that only God the Father alone is the true God. 

Please also bear in mind that the Bible tells us that the Son is himself God (Heb 1:8), YHWH (Heb 1:10, Mt 3:3), the ego eimi or I AM (Jn 8:24, 28, 58) and both YHWH - Elohim (Jn 20:28 re Ps 35:24). This is why 1st Jn 5:20 tells us that Son, who earlier in this book is that eternal life which is with the Father (1st Jn 1:2), is himself both true God and eternal life in (1st Jn 5:20). So Jesus is indeed the true God according to 1st John 5:20, and your suppositions about John 17:3 are merely a logical fallacy. 

continued 



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  From:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   7/6/2001 10:35 am  
To:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   (5 of 8)  
 
  110.5 in reply to 110.4  
 
9. Did Jesus ever say that he was God?John 7:28, 29; 14:6. 
Answer: No, because firstly the Jews at the time of Christ were a minority in their own country, which was ruled by the Romans, and contained a large number of Greeks. If Jesus had claimed to have been God then the response from the people would have been; which one? a Roman God, or one of the Greek Gods or possibly an Egyptian God? This is why Jesus only ever identified himself with YHWH (Jehovah) the one true God of the Jews, and never admitted to being either god or a god. Three times in John chapter 8, Jesus used the shortened form of I AM who I AM from the Septuagint rendering of Ex 3:14 (I AM, ego eimi) to himself verses 24, 28 and 58. Jesus also approved of Thomas application of Psalm 35:24 YHWH-Elohim (Lord and God) to himself. 

Secondly, the messianic secret is the theological assumption that Jesus never claimed openly to be YHWH God to the crowds, but he rather expected his miracles, healing and his claims to messianic authority to prove his person to these unbelieving Jews (Mk 2:7 re verse 10). Time and space do not permit me to say anything further, except that your three verses are completely unrelated, once again to your statement. 

10. Many saw Jesus, but has any man ever seen God?John 1:18; 6:46. 

Answer: At John 1:18, 4:46 and Col 1:15, the word God is used as a synonym for God the Father, who is never seen being invisible. The fact that Jesus is seen, but he Father is invisible see John 5:37, which proves that Jesus himself is not God the Father , a heresy which Trinitarianism rejects anyway. 

11. Did Jesus say that he was the Son of God or that he was God the Son?John 10:36; 1 John 4:15; 5:5, 13. 
Answer: He is the Son of God. Although it must be pointed out that the Son is himself deity as God the Father himself calls the Son both God (Heb 1:8) and YHWH (Heb 1:10). The divine name YHWH is also applied to the Son in numerous other passages, for example Mt 3:3 re YHWH at Isa 40:3 and John 20:28 re the word YHWH at Ps 35:24. 

12. Did Jesus ever say that he is equal to the Father?John 14:28; 20:17. 
Answer: Yes, please read John 5:18 and Phil 2:5 where this word equal is used to imply that Jesus is equal to the Father. At John 5:17 Jesus claims equality with the Father, within the social and linguistic contexts of the society within which he lived. His claim to have been working with the Father in sustaining the creation since the beginning, implies equality (in a Jewish context), because the Jews would have known very well that YHWH alone, is the creator and the sustainer of creation (Isa 44:24). 

13. Do the words "I and the Father are one" prove a Trinity?John 10:30; 17:21; Matthew 24:36. 
Answer: Once again I totally fail to see any connection whatsoever, between your statement and the two latter quoted verses. John 10:30 on the other hand, simply states that the Father and Son are one in agreement or in unity. The word for one in this verse being the neuter word hen rather than the masculine heis, which would have been used if Jesus had wished to imply that he was the Father. I do hope that you are not mistakenly assuming that Trinitarians believe that Jesus is the Father, because this is actually a non-Trinitarian belief called Modalism or Sabellianism. John 10:30 does however prove equality between the Son and the Father, because in the Jewish social context, to put your name before Gods is to claim equality with him. This is why the Jews took up stones to stone him (verse 31), as they understood this statement in verse 30, as a claim by Jesus to being deity himself, alongside the Father; You make yourself God (Jn 10:33). 

continued 



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  From:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   7/6/2001 10:36 am  
To:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   (6 of 8)  
 
  110.6 in reply to 110.4  
 
14. How did the early disciples view Jesus?John 1:29, 34, 41, 49; 6:69; 1 Corinthians 11:3. 
Answer: Well obviously at the start of Jesus ministry when he first met him they did not regard him as God, but simply as another prophet. It was only after Jesus resurrection that they come to fully understand who he was; John 20:28. This is why most of the proofs for Jesus deity are either in the epistles, or at the latter part of the Gospels after his resurrection, for because of the Messianic Secret his true nature was hidden from the people at the start of his ministry. 
Your reference to 1st Cor 11:3 does not in anyway disprove the deity of Christ either, because this verse deals with position and headship and not with nature. Men are said to be at the head of women in this verse; the head of woman is man and the head of Christ is God. Now obviously this does not imply that women are in any way lesser beings than men, of inferior worth and value. This verse simply states that positionally men are in a higher in position or rank to women in Gods eyes, this is why women are not to be in charge of Churches, though they can assist and help in a junior capacity. So likewise men are to be at the head of families. They are not superior to women, but are the same beings with merely a higher position of headship. In a similar way the Father is the source of all things, and holds a higher rank than the Son in all things. But this verse is speaking only of positional authority and not of nature. 

15. How did God view Jesus?Mark 9:7; Luke 2:9-11. 
Answer: You have quoted Mark 2:7; Who can forgive sins but God only, without reading onto verse 10: But that you many know that the Son of Man has power on earth to forgive sins. So Jesus from his own lips tells us that God (YHWH) alone can heal, but then in verse 10 he says that he also possesses the power to heal the paralytic man, thus proving that he is YHWH. I again fail to see any relevance in your quotation of Luke 2:9-11, especially as you have again failed to explain this verse. 

16. Does the New Testament contradict the Old Testament regarding the holy spirit being Gods active force?Matthew 3:11; Luke 1:41; John 14:26; Acts 1:8; 4:31; 10:38. 
Answer: But as I have said previously, the Bible nowhere calls the Holy Spirit by this name Gods active force, you are merely reading your unproven beliefs into the pages of Scripture. Furthermore your six verses are totally unrelated to this claim of yours, and are not even remotely related to your point. So I will remind you that in post three, I had proven that the Bible ascribes the four attributes of personality to the Holy Spirit; he can speak and say I (self-cognisance) which no mere impersonal force can do (Acts 13:2). He also possesses self-will (1 Cor 12:11), intellect (1st Cor 2:12-13) and emotion (Rom 15:30, Isa 63:10). Lastly the word Spirit in the Greek is the neuter word pnuma. However John writing under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit himself, breaks the rules of Greek grammar seven times in John 16:13-16 when he uses the masculine pronoun he of the Holy Spirit, rather than the neuter pronoun it. He does this to make a point, namely that the Spirit is a personal being a he, rather than an impersonal thing or it. 

17. At the time of Jesus baptism, where were the Father, the Son, and the holy spirit? Were they three in one?Matthew 3:16, 17. 
Answer: What do you mean by three in one, as I cant answer until question until you first define terms? It seems to me that you are criticising the Trinity before you have even tried to first properly understand it. Possibly if you were to take the time to really try and understand it, then you would be able to critique it more effectively. Anyway to address this verse, because God in an omnipresent spirit (Ps 139:7), he is everywhere and is not limited to any physical place or even time. Nevertheless, for the benefit of John the Baptist, at Jesus baptism the Father did choose to speak from heaven (2nd Peter 1:17), and the Holy Spirit also descended upon Jesus in some special way. So a special demonstration of the Father and Holy Spirit took place for Johns benefit, Jesus being in the water before John. 

continued 



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  From:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   7/6/2001 10:37 am  
To:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   (7 of 8)  
 
  110.7 in reply to 110.4  
 
18. What position does the resurrected Jesus occupy in the heavens?Acts 7:55, 56; Romans 8:34; Colossians 3:1; Hebrews 12:2. 
Answer: We must be very careful when considering these verses, because in Jewish terminology the phrase; the right hand of God (or power) is merely a figurative term which means a position of power and authority as Gods agent, viceroy or regent. So this phrase should not be taken literally as if the Father were seen sitting on a throne, with Jesus literally standing on his right hand side, remember that John 4:24 says that God is a Spirit. The Father is not an old bearded man sitting on a throne. 
Please also recall that I had previously proved from Scripture that the Father is never seen, his being invisible to us (Jn 1:18, Col 1:15). One of the main rules of Biblical hermeneutics (interpretation), is that of understanding a word or verse within the language, culture and context in which we find it in a passage. We should not read the Bible as if it were an American book, written in 1990s New York, in modern American English. So when we find idiomatic phrases or synonyms in Scripture, we should understand these within the context and culture within which they were given. 

19. Who gave Jesus that exalted position?Philippians 2:9-11. 
Answer: The Father returned Christ to this exalted position, which he had previously (Jn 17:3) Glory which I had with you before the world was. However, Phil 2:5-11 explains, that originally before the creation of the universe and of time itself the Son had glory with the Father, and existed eternally with him, because he existed in the form of God (Phil 2:6). Then during the incarnation he laid aside his divine prerogatives, and then humbled himself by coming to this earth as a mere man (Phil 2:7-8). This means that although he was still God, nevertheless as both God and man, he laid aside his divine glory. 

Then from verses 9-11 Paul tells us that at his ascension, the Father restored unto him once again his divine state when his divine position and glory were once again restored to him (Mt 28:18). Phil 2:11 ends with another application of the divine name YHWH to Jesus. When Paul quotes Isa 45:23 that all shall bow to YHWH, and applies this verse to Jesus by saying that all shall bow to Jesus. So Jesus is YHWH according to Paul. 

20. Does that make Jesus God or second only to God in the universe?1 Corinthians 11:3; Philippians 2:9-11. 
Answer: This restores Jesus to the position he had previously, where he shared the divine glory (Jn 17:3), which belongs to YHWH alone (Isa 42:8). I have also dealt at length with your two quotes. 

21. Who is the Supreme Sovereign of the Universe?Deuteronomy 3:24; Acts 4:24-27; 1 Corinthians 15:28. 

Answer: Deut 3:24 speaks about the creative acts of God and says that YHWH (Jehovah) alone is the creator. I feel on reflection, that Isa 44:24 is a much better verse which makes the same point, because it says that YHWH alone is the creator, and that he creates all alone and by himself. Possibly you did not quote this verse, because Jehovahs Witnesses believe that Jesus who they believe is not the almighty God, is nevertheless the creator along with YHWH (Jehovah) God! 

Secondly Acts 4:24-27 says; God who made the heavens and earth and the sea and all that is in them. Now seeing that Jehovahs Witnesses deny that Jesus is the true God (YHWH Jehovah), they have come up with a two God theory. Namely they claim that the Father is the Almighty God, and that Jesus the Mighty God (a lesser god) who is really Apollyon the angel of the bottomless pit (see the Watchtower book Then is Finished the Mystery of God, page 232). 

Besides which all this flies in the face of Scripture, which strongly rejects the idea that there are two Gods. Isaiah 43:10 says; Before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me. In Isa 44:6 YHWH (Jehovah) God says that he is the first and the last and that Besides Me there is no God. It goes without saying that in the book of Revelation, the first and the last is Jesus Christ who was dead but is alive again (Rev 1:17-18), and is the coming one see Rev 22:12-13). Thus because Jesus is the first and the last, he must also be YHWH God who alone is the first and the last in Isa 44:6. Another passage which firmly refutes the Watchtowers two god theory is Isa 45:5; I am the Lord (YHWH) there is no other, there is no God besides Me. 

1st Cor 15:28 says that in eternity the Son will be eternally subject to the Father. However the Trinity teaches an eternal subordination of the Son to the Father in eternity, and you are wrong if you assume that we do not believe this. The reason for this subordination, which is a willing and not a forced subordination by the way, is that the Son possesses two natures God and humanity. Now it is only as a man that Christ will eternally subordinate himself to the Father. Christ is the head of his kingdom, which is the church (1st Cor 15:24), and this kingdom which includes the man Christ Jesus (1st Tim 2:5) as its head (1st Cor 154:27), is then handed over and subject to the Father (1st Cor 15:28). 



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   From:  M_DAuvergne   7/6/2001 3:46 pm  
To:  Limey Bob (TheBagge)   (8 of 8)  
 
  110.8 in reply to 110.7  
 
Okaaaaayyy...so why are you posting this here?

Je te remercie! 
~M. D'Auvergne
 
  
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